SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey, my name is Eva, and this is Blond Quantum, the podcast that breaks down quantum technology into real-world business impact. Here we make the complex simple. No equation, no overthinking, just insight, innovation, and a bit of cure. So don't worry, you don't need a PhD in physics to follow. In each episode, I talk to funders, scientists, and investors about how quantum is reshaping the industries today, not in some distant future. Oh, and if you hear a black cat pouring in the background, that's my co-host, very alive shorting as a cat joining the conversation. Her name is Mel. Let's get started. Welcome everyone in the next episode of Blonde and Quantum. Today is a special day because we are recording this episode during the World Quantum Day. And the first time in the history of Blonde and Quantum, I have a pleasure to host a quantum expert who happened to be a woman. And not N Women. Professor Elaine Diamante, she is a leading experimentalist in quantum communication and cryptography with a distinguished career that includes, amongst others, the Stanford PhD, a European Research Council starting grant, and a 2024 CNRS Silver and Innovation Medal. She works as a CNNRS research director at Sorbonne University. And for those who are just scratching their head and thinking, what is actually CNRS? is a French National Center for Scientific Research. Alain is also director of PCQT, the France National Quantum Strategy, and she also has been served as a vice chair of the European Quantum Technologies Flagship Strategy Advisory. And on top of all of this, she's also a co-founder of Welling, Quantum Memory Startup, raising a serious age right now. I have no words. So thank you so much for being here today with us. Thank you so much, Eva, for the invitation. It's a pleasure to be here. It's probably a bigger pleasure for me, really. Let's start from talking a little bit from the um policy and strategy in Ga. Paris. Please tell me what makes Paris a serious contender as a global quantum hub. There's a certainly a lot going on in Paris right now. So what's your opinion?

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Yeah, so Paris, first of all, I guess it kind of follows the history of quantum technologies, right? Because Paris is home to some of the most groups, some research groups that were extremely very strong in physics and in mathematics. So there is a big tradition in general in France, you know, in fundamental science and in particular mathematics and physics. But in particular, Paris labs have hosted like a number of Nobel Prize winners that actually set the foundations of the second quantum revolution, which is the revolution that of course underpins quantum technologies. So actually, when I'm thinking of your question, I think it's a very natural place to see quantum technologies grow so nicely. So now, how has it evolved? So going from fundamental science and research to have an ecosystem, a quantum ecosystem, bringing together researchers, entrepreneurs, and policymakers is not easy. It has taken a lot of effort. So already, as we explained, we have the good basis of academia and of the fundamentals of research. And then I guess there were conditions in the last few years in France and in Paris that helped us, I guess, as researchers, so that when I'm talking like this, it's an academic researcher, to spin off. Okay, like the conditions were good to create companies to accelerate this creation of the ecosystem. Many of them are around Paris, although I should not say only Paris, there is also in the rest of France as well, in many, many hubs as well. And so now, with all of this, it has created an extremely dynamic ecosystem. I see it from our students that, you know, they do their master's degree or their doctorate degree, and they, you know, they can absorb, they can be absorbed by the quantum industry. There are so many good, good examples of quantum industries in the Paris region that is quite amazing.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

And I think it's good that you mentioned that because um recently I spoke with Michael Cabart from um from the UK, and um actually France was very distinguished in in terms of um the research that, as you said, it started very, very early, much earlier than the uh national um quantum uh French policy um strategy that was established, I think, in 2021, if I'm correct.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

The first phase, and now the second phase is in preparation. Exactly. The second phase.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

But the research, the research started much, much earlier. And I think this is the um this is the reason why is so much going on in terms of startup uh popping up in France right now. Your government is also very active and supporting as a also as an investor, which is rare in Europe, I guess. Although the rest of Europe's um trying to catch up on this, right? So actually, let's talk a little bit about the Europe. So a lot of experts, especially when I talk to US-based experts, they're saying that you know uh it's so fragmented and it's always a problem. From your perspective, do you think that the fragmentation of Europe is actually a weakness? Or maybe there is something in it in our, I don't know, hidden strength?

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Okay, so you know this is a very good question. So I think we should be a bit pragmatic about it. Um, I think, although I'm a fierce European, um the um uh you do, by the way. Yeah. So so fragmentation is a reality. Fragmentation is a reality, and and I think it has been acknowledged, it is acknowledged by everyone. We know it. The member states know. How does fragmentation uh what is the effect of fragmentation? What we see is that the possibly too many, too much redundancy. So it shows as a redundancy in uh national strategies, right? So we may be doing multiple member states of the EU, for example, in Europe, may be doing the same thing in parallel, which is a little bit of a pity sometimes because we could have done it together, you know, like collectively put our forces together and not have to create this redundancy. Fragmentation can also show up a bit in different policies, different, you know, timelines, a little bit of different priorities as well, depending on the strength of each of the country, which shows in the strategy. But now this actually concludes the negative part because I think there is also positive things in the European model, is the fact that we have a collective ecosystem, thanks to, of course, the European Commission and the Council and all of this organization of the European Union in particular, that creates as well a lot of dialogue, right? And a lot of um possibility to have an actual impact. Each one of the countries, the European countries, may be too weak to make a difference with respect, for example, to other big um powerhouses in the world. All together we can have what is sometimes called the Brussels effect, you know, in policies that we have seen it, like for example, in AI, we have seen it, you know, in general in digital, in digital affairs, that Europe altogether can have the capacity to impose its model. And I think that's important. And I hope uh we will see this happening in quantum as one.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Do you think it may also potentially, you know, strain the competitiveness between the countries and the startups?

SPEAKER_00 8:21

What I think is going to happen, and maybe we can talk about it more extensively, maybe at this point there is possibly almost certainly too many startups, okay? In Europe.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

That's interesting, sorry. And I would love to follow up on the this is likely the case.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

Yeah, we can talk about it. So I think what what can happen is that what will possibly happen is that we're going to see a lot more, you know, consolidation merging, and I think that which also will reduce the effects of fragmentation. So I think what's happening actually at the European level, and this is an information at this point, is that we're trying to make it possible to have less effect of uh national uh, you know, barriers in creating companies and actually making a bit easier with like a regime that would allow companies to become European, you know, and so to grow at a European scale rather than a national scale. And I think this will help a lot. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

So do you think, as a conclusion, Europe can realistically compete with the US and uh China on that scale in the future?

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Yeah, um I still hope, okay, you find me at the point where I'm a little bit uh uh yes, in between. I'm a natural optimist, okay. But at this point, yeah, there are reasons to have a little bit of worries, okay, to be a little bit worried. I think Europe has an extremely, what are our strengths, okay? We have extremely strong research and academic basis, okay. We have a hugely dynamic startup ecosystem. Okay, we see it like of really good technology that we know we know how to build. We are uh we have the this fragmentation effect we talk about, but at the same time we know how to build the infrastructures, which is important because then this is um necessary, you know, to give access to both researchers and uh and industry as a common platform to validate their technology and push, you know, from research to actual uh to actual product. Okay, so we know how to do this well. What we don't know how to do, and this uh affects our competit competitiveness, is to how scale up how to scale up our uh our industry so we have a lot less private capital. I mean, we can even uh call it like this without it's connected to the funding, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:37

In many cases. And I see that as well from the perspective of um of my job, that a lot of later-on startups are um actually complaining on the access of the of the growth capital um in Europe. And they are basically forced to look somewhere else. Um so this is something that you think is is gonna change in the next future in Europe?

SPEAKER_00 11:02

There is a very strong will like now in uh at the level of Europe to fight this, to somehow find a way to create the instruments that will make it possible to not have to go as it is today, the situation for funding to non-European. This is a bit mandatory today. There is just not enough capital. And so it's completely impossible not to do it, and so you have to. And so there is all these ideas that I was telling you about making it easier. There is like these new ideas about making uh yeah, private funds, uh big funds, private funds in Europe. Uh what I think will happen is may private um public um governments need to step in as well. And somehow we we need to see uh we will see some sort of mergen, some combination between uh a significant uh public funding, which uh Europe does well. We will know how to do this well in terms of public funding with respect to the US in particular, for example, and and then find a model that will balance this and uh that will manage uh to keep some sort of uh sovereignty. I think this will be critical in the next few years.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

I think governments should step in, especially on the industry like quantum or EI, the ones that are strategically important, because obviously, you know, like B2B SAS will be final, private capital. And I think France here it could be a really good role model because France is already doing it, right? By the Amazon. I think so.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

At least we're trying. At least we're trying. Yeah. Maybe I should also say something because we talked about, you know, uh fight between the US and China. Um, you know, as an academic, I'm like I like open science, right? Science is done in a collaborative and open way, and and we have like uh, you know, we're super collaborative with uh with our I did my PhD in the US, right? And uh and I have many and I live in US on the daily basis. Exactly, with uh with uh European American colleagues and also with Chinese, actually. But um yeah, we cannot be completely naive about it. So there is some some transition between uh science, you know, that needs to be open and collaborative, and um and finding like uh this uh scale up of uh companies and finding like a right balance between uh between these industrial needs and and the market. So that's important.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

That's correct. We definitely should not be closed for collaboration, but still keep in mind about the strength we have and use it, right? That's right, probably the collaborative level is on the academic level, and then once you start to create um private companies, it's a little bit more competitive. Um actually that's very good because I wanted to just smoothly go and ask you based on your academia, um academia experience and the background. You know, let's talk a little bit about that, the public research versus startup. So quantum is such a special industry because everything is different here, right? Um it's it's it's you know the time from going from a public research to a product or services, the journey is much longer than in any other startup, I guess. And still most of the breakthroughs are coming from academia. So, where exactly from your perspective is the place with startups adding value?

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Well, in my from my own experience, you know, growing from an academic lab and seeing how things work in a startup. Third is a big difference. Since I have created my startup, I find everything very slow in academia. We are so slow. I mean, which is normal, right? It's kind of inherent in the way that fundamental research works, that you need to, you know, question yourself, find the right way, you will do it wrongly, then you will try again, and then you always need to look for funding as well, which is actually true for startups as well. But um, but startups, the the way that I see it, that they have an the added value is this acceleration, that they can take something that would take you much longer to scale up in your academic lab and actually make this product. It's not our job in any case in an academic lab, right? To do a product. So, what a startup can do is to take this technology that you have validated at a low TRL, technology readiness level, right? And then accelerate it. So it can take in two years, what I saw in my startup, it can take uh an optical table. So an optical table is a device that takes like a whole room, okay, with all of this equipment, and put it within two years, right? In a in a like a product that works, 10 key, okay, that uh that works continuously in operational conditions and actually has even better performance than what you had in your your full room. This is the capacity added value of a startup. And why can it do that? Because it has obviously more funding and and uh because it can attract uh like more important quantities of funding at the same time, and it also has an unbelievable concentration of extremely well qualified qualified people working together and without having to, you know, teach or to, you know, to do other distractions, like conferences and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

So I think this is the main added value of and you mentioned that everything in academia takes longer. Um, I agree with it. But I I would say maybe that's for better, you know, because knowing that some startups operate with the philosophy, you know, fake it till you make it and so on. It's good to know there are still industries where um, you know, that the research is taking the time and we ensuring that that's what we're doing is is correct and it's right and it's working. Of course, that's our job. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Going from this perspective, what do you think is the strength of academia? What academia actually do better than a startup in quantum today?

SPEAKER_00 16:56

They can academia, what we can do is that we can validate proof of principle ideas. So we can take, we can create new ideas, okay, that will uh that will answer to the challenges of uh okay. So I'm talking uh from a point of view of someone who's uh quite applied, right? My research is quite applied. This is not this is why I even, you know, I contributed to a company. I don't do only fundamental physics or mathematical. Otherwise, of course, the objective would be to just advance science. But obviously, my my goal has always been in my group to demonstrate a quantum advantage for this quantum communication and cryptographic protocols that have been shown. And seeing it being deployed in, you know, like as a product is unbelievably rewarding, right? So, what I can do as an academic researcher, being in this position that uh that I like, that I have chosen as a researcher, is to try new ideas, right? To think of new things that you can do with the quantum devices, in my case, quantum networking, okay, and and validate it in the lab. This is something that uh we needed at an academic level, right? To have new ideas and validate them. And then you push to the company to to you know to push it to the next level, then it is that's true, and you have all the resources and infrastructure to do the um which startups are not having very, you know, they have very limited access, especially in the beginning, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Before they find the funding and so on. So that's definitely crucial. You mentioned before, um you said you said something that really sparked my curiosity. You said, I think we have too many startups, quantum startups in Europe, and I will also follow up um on this. So, first of all, do you think we have too many startups and why? And the second question follow-up to this, do you think that the current VC model that we have in Europe is for not only in Europe globally, is even suited for quantum startups?

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Okay, so on the first question, yes, I think I I I have to maintain uh the the um statement that I made that uh I I do think that you know, like for example, we it's not in France, right? In the whole Europe. I was talking about Europe as a whole. Um, so like for example, uh when you have multiple quantum computing companies that are on the same qubit modality, uh, or many QKD companies, you know, companies that do quantum key distribution, just uh maybe for a different reason. The QKD companies, for the moment, the market does not sufficient to support that many companies. I just think that at some point something uh will happen, unless the market explodes, which can happen. You never know. So, but it's not the case. So it's only a matter of of market, right, for the moment. So quantum computing is a little bit of a different case because you know, we are like at the process at the level of small quantum processing units that are not actually yet useful, you know? So it's a it's a race to make to make to make the most useful uh uh quantum quantum computer. And then convince the clients potentially. Do we really need to have four quantum computing uh in photonics or neutral atoms or ions in Europe? Do we really need why don't we create a champion, you know, a European champion in none of this, so that we can like be more. This is my this is and this is where the question of fragmentation comes into the the question that maybe some countries would like to have their own champion. But I think there is like the mentalities are moving, and now we're moving towards the direction of realizing that I think it's normal, it takes a few years, right? You need to to labs to spin off already their technology to show that they can grow, and then will come the time of the consolidation. I think that's what's going to happen.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

And I think I think it's a part of the standard journey of the industry creating themselves. And uh, I'm pretty sure as you said, like, you know, teams around the world in the labs are working sometimes on the similar technology or uh similar solutions. And then there is a moment when the consolidation needs to happen. And actually, it's very interesting that you said that it may not be enough place for every of these companies that are now existing on the market. Because one of the questions I wanted to ask you is actually what do you think is the bottleneck? Is it the technology, the talent, or the or the consumer for um for quantum startups?

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Yeah, so so I think, although I I think some people disagree, but for me, it's not the talent, not yet. At least in academia, we're trying to train as many quantum engineers as possible. And and what I have seen, what I've witnessed already from my group and from my master, there is a flow of uh super well trained in our group, but in other groups too, quantum engineers that uh that um that go afterwards and do like uh beautiful things in the in the in the startups like which means basically that we have less postdocs and and uh and professors in uh in academia. So the I I think there is an appetite, talent uh for the moment. We should be careful because the because we would need to, you know, continue these training efforts, which is the case, I think. Like for example, in the French national strategy, training has a very, very important role. So I would put it between the technology and customers, but for me, for the moment, the bottleneck is probably with their linked, right? Because the technology is here, it's advancing, but maybe it's not yet at the satisfaction of the customers, right? So I think the market is a bit small for the moment, is a bit uncertain, you know. It's like uh so I would probably put the bottleneck in the customers that um that I think so, because um, but it's because I have to admit that maybe the technology does not offer yet, you know, the the advantage in performance, something that would make the difference. We don't we haven't seen the AI moment in quantum for the moment, to put it a little bit. We haven't seen it yet.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

So we agree with everything what you said, and I think sometimes from my perspective, yeah, speaking with the business leader, even on the executive level, I think many of them are actually confused because we are living in the bubble, and as you said, there's many startups in the same qubit modality, but the customers they don't even see what's the difference between the modality. Exactly. What's the difference between those two? Why is this important for me, right? I just want the problem.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

They are trying to navigate a landscape that is extremely technical already, you know, very hard, announcements all over the place that they don't necessarily understand of milestones that are important, that are super important, but they don't directly translate into their business, okay? Into their business. So it's a it's a it's a complex landscape.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

And this is what I think we operate on the different, you know, different values and different views. They operate more on like um use cases. I don't think most of them really care what kind of technology do we need, as long as you can solve my problem, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:06

I agree with you. And uh and that's the problem with this technology that you need to consider in the long term. It is not going to give revenue tomorrow. I mean, it's not um yeah, big time 100%.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

And then the second part of the question, I think we we didn't um we didn't speak about it yet. So, do you think the current VC model we have is it suitable for quantum startup, or maybe we need to look for something else?

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Well, what is the alternative? So I think um so um yes, so it's a good question. I don't have an easy answer. So I think uh uh the the more globally the VC model or the startup model um can uh can show a little bit its limits, I think, at some point. And this is where um for me the solutions we talked about in the beginning, some sort of combination of private uh of public in stronger public investment. But together we cannot we cannot um you know um completely remove the private uh private funds, right? And this is not possible. No, I guess we like to see the world which is only relying on the public funding. It's difficult for in a sector where we don't have big revenues yet, uh, you know, I think it's difficult to not have a VC VCs involved into the funding.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

I think it's uh it's two sides um edged sword because from one side the the public funding also maybe have a different form, right? We have a grant, we have academic grants, of course, for early startups, but we also have in some countries like France um the government stepping in as a sovereignty fund and uh investing directly or half directly in some cases, right? But also from the private market perspective, what I see there's not many venture capital firms which are focusing specifically on quantum, maybe more popping up right now on the market, which which is very good basically for the market, right? But uh from quantum nation perspective, quantum nation started in 2018 and it's probably one of the first, if not the first, globally, right? So the only one dedicated to do that space. So we need more focus on the private aspect as well on different stages, on the early stages, but also absolutely, and I think this is the way the the field is going.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

Yeah, absolutely, yes, uh, completely. We need more quantitation, more like a more focus of in any case in uh in um in VCs that support really the sector. That I understand it as well because it's complicated, as you were saying, uh, you need to understand it.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

So it's a very special uh it's a very I'm pretty sure uh Christopher and Olivier will be listening. Right. Okay. But changing uh topic a little bit, I would love to talk a little bit from the process of going from the lab to um you know real-world deployment. And I think you have very, very unique experience on this, uh, having exposure for um both. So, from what your your perspective, Lani, what do you think? What's the biggest gap between a lab demo and a real quantum network?

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Okay, big. There is a quite a few, yes, I have seen this happening, and actually we are in the process actually of building real quantum networks, right? We're still in some intermediary phase. So now what we know how to do pretty well is lab demonstrations, okay, whereas we were saying before, you validate your technology, you're so you you know that you can make it stable enough in the in the lab and that you can actually operate it. You have shown your quantum advantages, whatever you want to show it. And so now you want to deploy it in an infrastructure. So the very first thing that you need to do, so I'm talking as someone who's talking, who is working with communication uh networks, for example, with optical fibers, right? Or free space links satellite. So the very first thing to do is to work with infrastructure providers, right? And so these can be telecom operators or satellite, uh, you know, satellite uh operators who already speak a different language. And so the important thing is to start um uh working together on integration aspects, laying down, of course, the infrastructure or reuse the one that is already in place, and then putting quantum devices on the two ends and making them work. Like there is all sorts of very engineering aspects that kick in, you know, from the synchronization of um all sorts of uh challenges that you have to face, all the layer as well of networking, right? On how to make these devices talk and how they give the outputs. And this is what a real infrastructure means for me. When you start operationally being able to demonstrate the you know, this advantage to actually show that you have run your uh your system in the real conditions is what's make it an infrastructure, and then you can put it in the service potential of other people. This is this is the whole goal of building these infrastructures that we're doing to invest.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

I love the example that you gave. Um I want to follow up on this. So if if I'm a telecom company, where should where when should I actually start investing or investing?

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Oh, you're already too late. You have already started investing. I think, and actually, we do see a bit big interest from telecom operators, right? Because uh because they know that quantum communication networking is um they they will eventually need to provide this service to their customers, and they can also be infrastructure providers, but also service providers. And so they went quite fast, quite quickly beyond the phase, you know, of just learning how it is, what it is. You know, we see sometimes some industry sectors that are coming to the events to just listen, you know, to see what's going on, what are the actors and what they are doing. So telecom operators are among the ones that were pretty fast in uh creating even their own teams and uh starting to work with academic researchers to learn uh learn how it works. And then we do like the joint in France, we have these joint PhDs, you know, between industry and um and academia and uh and universities. So we have this very established collaborative uh PhDs. So this is one way you know for them to gain in know-how. And so it's been a few years now. That's why I'm saying it's too late if you haven't done it, if you're a telecom operator and you haven't done it yet.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

So, from what you see on the market in terms of the telecoms, most of those companies already have their own teams. Do you see them trying to you know innovate inside or do they rather support the university and the collaboration through the connected PhD and uh maybe then investing in startups, the next step and so on?

SPEAKER_00 30:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I think from what I've seen, it's mostly they have their own teams. So actually, you can find now a job as a quantum engineering in telecom companies and satellite companies like this. There are actual positions there. I would say that although there are some uh cases where you see some innovation, in those cases it's not like a startup where there is real innovation. They are a little bit different. I think they see themselves as providing the use case usually and also the infrastructure. I think mostly their role is situated there. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

That's that's making sense. And how far are we from having a first like quantum functioning quantum internet? Because I know there were um there's actually startup in, I think, in New York that demonstrated already like two weeks connection. But from your perspective, before we have fully functioning quantum internet, how how far are we?

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Yeah, you know something before uh to answer this question, the the problem is that we need to define the quantum internet, right? What exactly is the quantum internet? Because it's not like uh, yes, let's say it's not like the classical internet, right? It's not like the internet that allows you and me to talk right now, right? Quantum internet is not going to be like that, right? It's going to be um um general purpose, yes, quantum network, but used for specific um for some to demonstrate where quantum communication uh has a sense to be deployed, right? And though this this can be for secure communication, of course. This is one of the you know flexible applications of quantum networks. It can also be quantum internet, it can even be like my favorite, which is like interconnecting quantum devices in data centers and this type of thing. So quantum networking is going to be used for all of this, uh for all of these applications. Actually, defining the use cases of a quantum internet is a major objective of the field in the next few years, right? So we know that we can do distributed quantum computing, we know we can do secure communication, um, sensor um networks of sensors, etc. But you know, we need more applications of a quantum internet. And so to actually deploy a quantum internet um for me means to be able to transfer quantum information, entanglement, which is like the basic um yes, entanglement, um, to locations where they are needed. How do I see this? I see entanglement as a resource, has become now a resource, a bit like energy or bandwidth, where research are a resource for our communications today. Entanglement, so it has to be efficiently generated, distributed, allocated by specific algorithms, and consumed. And you want to optimize that at each one of these levels. So for me, a quantum internet is a device, is like an infrastructure that manages to do that from the physical layer, you know, where the entanglement is generated and distributed and synchronized with quantum memories and quantum repeaters and brought into the end users, which can be quantum sensors or quantum computers, for example. And then you have to do this all the layers. You have to allocate all of this resource properly, knowing that it's a very fragile resource. Okay. So how far are we from this? We have some, you know, embryonic demonstrations like the one in New York, and we have uh other some uh examples, you know, how a quantum internet will look like when it's uh deployed full scale. We have a few years, I think. So to answer a very long detour to answer your questions, I think we still need a few years to see a fully functional quantum.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

But a few years you will define as more three years or five years or eight years? How many?

SPEAKER_00 34:30

By 2030. I know it's an easy answer, you know. It gives like a round number. But yeah, I really think that in like four or five years we will see a different level of um of uh of functionalities.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

So Lenny, just to summarize this for our for benefits of our non-technical audience, what you're saying is actually that um quantum internet is not gonna replace our standard um internet communication. It will be only deployed in some specific cases, maybe institutions. So let's talk a little bit like specific use cases.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

So, for example, what banks, governments, we're gonna use I think that just to I think it will be deployed in synergy with a classical internet, okay, together when it makes sense, a bit in the same way that quantum computers can be deployed in the high performance computing centers, you know, to accelerate uh some uh some cases. I think that's how the quantum internet will work. And yeah, finance, yeah, banks, like uh like uh but but even you know, providing security in critical infrastructure, I think would be very important, even their own devices, wherever you have data centers, right? Even securing access within data centers or between data centers of banks, of operators, you know, of and then of course government, you know, very high confidentiality um government, uh government uh infrastructure, medical, medical data as well, uh, can be can be one uh application. And then sensors, I think.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

And the sensors, okay. So what you're saying basically is that in terms of the data centers, I would like to follow up on that. So by saying data centers, you mean specifically data center providers, or by data center you mean that every single enterprise protecting their data will use an enterprise defined by, I don't know, K plus employees companies will have to use um quantum internet to protect the internal data, right? Because there's a lot of discussion right now about you know the threat of quantum breaking encryption. So this is another question is that real or is it overhype and when is that gonna happen? But do you think at the end of the journey, in the five years from now, every single enterprise level company will have to use quantum internet to protect their own data? Or this is something that will be on the higher level or layer in terms of like, hey, Amazon or Google or any other data center provider will use that instead of me as an enterprise having to use it.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

Okay, okay, that's I'll try to answer to all of the questions because they were by me. So, no, I don't think so. I don't think that it will only be the Amazon and the Google and everything. Of course, they will also need to protect their massive data centers. But I actually what think my a bit of vision of what could happen is that even medium-sized, let's say, enterprises will need to protect their assets, their data centers, their key communication and those of their clients with quantum communication. Okay, whether this is like long distance and so it makes it a real quantum internet, or more modest distance, you know, uh like shorted distance quantum communication links, it's it doesn't matter. Let's say it's gonna not go. The important is that we can have the infrastructure and the technology to do it. Okay, so I I actually think that it will be a more global need, a more global need to employ this type of technologies. And to answer your technology your question on the um on the quantum encryption and the threats to encryption by quantum computers, it is actually a very no, it is not overhyped. It is, I truly believe, it's an acute, um, actually very real problem that is happening now, because many, maybe to the benefit of the non-experts in the audience, what's happening today is that our communications can be secure communications, can be held by some malevolent party, okay, some dishonest party who wants to learn the secrets, um, kept in an encrypted format somewhere, and then wait until the quantum quantum computer that is um that is uh strong enough, uh, okay, big enough to be able to decrypt this algorithm comes into end. This we don't know when it's going to happen. But the fact is that the data today are vulnerable to decrypt, uh, to be decrypted by a quantum computer in even in five years, for example, say from now, or even 2029, like Google announced uh recently. So these timelines are a bit uh fuzzy, they move a lot. So it is an actual threat. So we need to somehow respond to this threat as a society, as an enterprise.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

That's very valuable what you said. I recently also have a discussion with Bill Vass, exactly Bill Vass, the CTO of Buzalan, exactly on the same uh question. And I think he had a very similar uh conclusion that you have that this is a real thing. And obviously, the market is talking a lot right now about uh harvest now, decrypt later. Yes, exactly. And so on. So, from that perspective, can you please explain what's the difference between post-quantum cryptography and uh quantum communication?

SPEAKER_00 39:50

Of course, yes. So post-quantum cryptography is uh mathematics, quantum cryptography is physics. Okay, that's an easy answer. That's an easy answer, but it it does come down to that, right? Like post-quantum cryptography actually needs new mathematical algorithms to um uh to um to by default, these mathematical algorithms we will never be able to prove that they will ever forever be robust against uh attacks by some very you know, very powerful device. That does not mean they are not uh they are not valuable. So I believe very much in the importance of post-quantum cryptography, and I think they will necessarily be deployed unless for some reason all of the post-quantum algorithms are proven to be insecure in the in the next few years. We are going to see deployment of post-quantum solutions. Uh, there is no question about it. While quantum communication and quantum cryptography give a physics-based security, okay, therefore, by default and by design, they are robust against attack by quantum computers. They are harder to deploy, of course. They're harder to deploy, they need the new infrastructure because you move from the mathematical layer, which is a bit the foundation of our cybersecurity, to physical layer. And this is something that the cybersecurity world doesn't really have the habit of doing. So it it's it requires a change of mentality, and this is harder, I think, for cybersecurity. But um, but it's uh in principle and and in in practice, I think honestly it's uh it brings an absolute level of security. Gotcha. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Um, Lenny, right now I would love to talk a little bit more about your startup perspective, uh, changing a little bit of topic. Yeah. And you recently co-founded welling once while leading a major research ecosystem. And I want to take you some couple of takeaways points on that experience from you. Because that obviously two different works that require, I guess, different side of character of yours. One is like, as you said, like requires a lot of patience, it's slow paced, the other one is very dynamic, fast, result focused, quick results focus, right? So, what did you learn from that experience?

SPEAKER_00 42:07

Yeah, it has been quite a journey. So the startup will exist, it was incorporated like in 2022. So it's a relatively young company, yeah. So it's four years. Um I'm very happy that uh that I did that. I've actually, uh you know, it's it's never easy. It's not, I didn't think I was going to do a startup that I was made uh, you know. I thought, you know, I was a very standard academic researcher who knows how to do fundamental science, publish their papers and stuff like this. And this is something that I like a lot, right? That's why I do it. Like train students, uh, talk with uh Philips. This is my favorite still, but I've learned so much by the by funding uh the start of the company, Wing. First of all, I'm really, really, it actually stimulates me as an academic researcher, which is interesting, right? It brings all sorts of new ideas because it's kind of situated because uh Wing does quantum interconnection technology, so the networking layer of computing, okay, based on its um flagship quantum memory technology. And so this quantum interconnection layer opened a new, like because I was doing more quantum cryptography and um before in my group, and now this idea about distributing information, you know, doing distributed architectures and looking at these protocols and how um this quantum interconnected technology, you know, opens new paths to quantum computing. It's I find it extremely stimulating from a scientific point of view. And then from an entrepreneurial point of view, I've learned many, many things. I'm not sure I like everything about the entrepreneurial work, but I've learned, you know, how to talk to investors, to finance people. It has made the it has made me already, you know, uh I'm in the process also of talking to policymakers or talking to entrepreneurs, it's a whole different world. It's a very instructive uh Experience and actually learning how the market works, you know, and how you create market attraction, how to talk to investors to convince them that your vision is obvious for you, but it's not obvious for them. Uh has an added value, is it's really interesting. I honestly like the experience a lot.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

That's why it's definitely a lot of juggling. That's why I said on the very beginning that you have a very rare experience because there's not many people who can draw juggle those, you know, two even aspects, like technology and entrepreneurship. And then on top of it, you also add the policymaking, right? Each of these groups of the um shareholders, stakeholders, they they just, you know, they they receptive on a completely different objectives.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Yeah. And you know, sometimes I have to admit, I guess it needs different parts of the brain. Because as a as someone policy making, you almost have a little bit sometimes. You of course want to help companies and researchers, but I think as someone who's also, you know, I'm interested in the impact of quantum technologies to society, right? And to people, very, you know, like very very pay attention, you know, attentive to responsible innovation, to quantum ethics, to quantum diplomacy, you know. I believe very much in the power of scientific diplomacy. So, you know, on one hand, you have, you know, what we discussed in the beginning, that there is this race between US, China, Europe, and everything. And that, of course, as uh someone who works in research and entrepreneurship, I want to push Europe as much as possible. On the other hand, I do think that scientific diplomacy, in particular in quantum, is crucial and fundamental to push international collaborations and partnerships and make this whole thing beneficial to everyone, right? And not for only very few. And uh and yeah, sometimes there is conflicting uh um sides on this, but um yeah, I hope we'll make it happen. We have to make it happen. We have to make it happen.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

I agree with that aspect. Yes. What are the other aspects that you will say cause or kill, let's say kill most of quantum startups today from your perspective?

SPEAKER_00 46:25

I guess uh I think what's the difficult part is to find the right uh business plan, right? What will actually create this is the difficulty, what will actually in in the field that we discussed before, right, where there are no immediate revenues, very tough, is to is to find um a way to grow, I guess, uh your uh the market and the and the customers with your technology and and convince them of your added value. I think what could fail if you put yourself into too much of a niche, you know, all in a place where uh there is just uh the there is just not customer, the people not not interested in any of you have to offer, right? So and I think the this is what uh will or can make some quantum uh startups fail at some point. We haven't seen that many examples, but as I was telling you before, I think it's going to happen. And so you need to find some um winning argument or some broader um, I think. No, that's so accurate.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

I must say that from my perspective, like I um I spent most of my life in early stage startups in terms of my professional experience, 16 years and so on. But when I started learning about quantum years a little bit two years ago, at first I I couldn't imagine. Like it was my first question, actually. So if the quantum computers are not ready yet, commercially ready, to be, you know, launch on the plot, how those companies are making any revenue? Like, what are the objectives of the venture capital investing in them and so on and so on? It was like so abstract and different. Yeah, obviously, long cycles are not unique, they are common for any deep tech companies, even in the medical world, which I had a background experience. Experience. Yeah, but but this is different. This is different. Yeah, because it is long term, yeah. Even in the medical world, the cycles are long, but they are pretty much defined. Like step by step, you know what to do. I think in quantum, um, there's no this certainty that even if you go through the whole cycle, that the end of this, you know, you will find this business model, you will find those customers, and and basically the technology will be will be used. So it's the word is more difficult.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

Yeah, you need the trust from the VCs, and sometimes you know they lose their patience, and that's why it's important to show milestones, to show milestones so often, like to demonstrate that you are um advancing towards your objectives. This is this is important.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

This is also probably the reason why there's now so many venture capitalists investing in uh um quantum space, because most of the venture capitalists there are not technological people. They are not well, they are technological you, but they are not having um technology background in the sense. And uh that's what you said, right? Speaking with different um stakeholders require using a different language, like finance people, for example. Yeah, it's a whole different world. Yeah, it's a whole different world, and um different stakeholders look for their own different um angles and glasses, let's say, in that okay. Um so let's talk and I hear now a little bit more about the future, and uh maybe or maybe not, you will have some uh bold prediction for me and uh our audience. So, first of all, I want to ask you what in your opinion will exist um first: a useful quantum computer or a real quantum network?

SPEAKER_00 49:55

Yes, it's a tricky one. Real quantum network, I think it makes for me, and and I believe this because I think that quantum networking will enable a useful quantum computer too. So actually, I believe very much into that. So I think it can go into this direction. Quantum networking in general advances fast first, and then we'll see a large-scale uh fault-tolerant quantum computer, possibly and most likely enabled also by quantum networking. That's what I think.

SPEAKER_01 50:23

So connected to each other. Okay. And when do you think that's gonna happen?

SPEAKER_02 50:27

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Okay. Temporal horizons. Well, we did talk about it before when we talked about the quantum internet and how it's going to look. I said about 2030. Um, yeah, to actually see a useful quantum computer where useful could you know could be a cryptographically relevant quantum computer, which is the one you know that breaks uh encryption, or it could be a computer that actually solves, you know, a very important quantum chemistry problem, right? So it can be, or it can create a new material or something. So I guess uh following my logic, this will take a little bit longer. So yeah, I would put it a little bit further. I think we can see like a more uh yet 35, yeah, I think I think so. Yeah. I mean that's it.

SPEAKER_01 51:11

So we will need four years approximately for the quantum network and another five years maybe for the useful quantum computer. That also can be defined.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

It doesn't mean that it's not useful before, because that's why you know quantum computing companies do sell some QPUs, right? The because quantum processing units, because you know you can try them with different things, you know. And so, but uh but they need to be patient.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

Useful is not the right definition. Maybe it should be commercially viable or commercial. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And then um, from your perspective, if you can mention one thing in the industry that we believe today that may be wrong, what that would be.

SPEAKER_00 51:57

That I hope I guess uh it's wrong to believe that the quantum computer, maybe there's still some belief in some, although I think it's a bit less the case now, there is some belief in quantum in uh non-quantum, like in the business and industry, that the quantum computer will solve any possible problem. So this is wrong, okay? So I think this is there is some hype around this, right? So, and and because uh I think we're all in a particular sense when when people start saying that it will solve climate change and things like that, that makes me feel uncomfortable because I think uh we should uh yeah, we should not create hype around what a quantum computer can do. I think it can be uh revolutionize many sectors, but it will not um diminish poverty in the world. So I think this uh this extreme hype around the quantum computing is wrong. So I think the industry should be aware of this. Um and then uh yeah, I guess it's my major thing. What is what else could be wrong? I think also those that say that a monolithic is single quantum computer, but again, again, this is my my thing, right? That that a monolithic, like a one uh quantum computer, can uh will be able to become a full-toller quantum computer. I don't think this is going to happen. I believe more in modular than uh quantum computing. So it needs to be a network from your I think so, yes. So I'm pretty convinced about that.

SPEAKER_01 53:19

Yeah, and I I like this um this more realistic approach of yours, to be honest. Um I think the hype around quantum is kind of comparable to the hype about AI when people think oh, AI can, you know, we we have seen this a couple of years ago. AI will solve all of our problems, and a lot of people just forgot that it's like a language model rather than you know a super smart machine and so on. So it may be comparable here. We're not gonna solve all of humanity problems in the next five years.

SPEAKER_00 53:51

For sure, it will probably create more humanity problems, AI, and I hope it won't be the same, and I really hope it won't be the same for quantum, right? And I really hope we can avoid this.

SPEAKER_01 54:03

But nobody look at right, that every historically, every new invention, every new technology not only bring us the good things, but also bring us the bad.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

So we should regulate and roll for regulation. Is it true European? I'm definitely for regulation.

SPEAKER_01 54:19

AI of quantum of everything. It's a true European and definitely for regulation. I like that statement. I like that statement. Okay. So another question from the prediction category, let's say. Is there anything that you think if I invite you again to my podcast in five years from now? I hope you will. I I would love to.

SPEAKER_00 54:41

What do you think will change? In five years, okay. Um, so according, if I want to be coherent with my predictions, we will have a quantum network. We will manage, in my opinion, so we can manage to deploy a more significant and operational quantum networking infrastructures. We will have managed to connect also quantum network with quantum networking some QPUs, but maybe not sufficiently enough to, you know, break all records and uh and do all the applications that are uh that are hoped for by quantum computing, but we'll be in a good uh in our good way. Yeah, so we'll have advanced quite a bit in the use cases as well, in the quantum algorithms, so the software layer, you know, of a management and an algorithmic layer. And I hope we'll have my hope is that we'll have significant milestones and all of this happening that to maintain interest in the technology. I would not want, I would be very sad to see, you know, the famous winter happening, um, where because there is no, you know, there is uh there is no huge breakthrough, there is like a loss of interest. Of course, it has happened to other technologies and people, you know, kept working working on them in their lab and they did make advances. I'm pretty optimistic that I don't think this will happen because there's so many things to do, and I think we have like many milestones to go through that I'm really hoping that we will maintain the dynamics, you know. And I so I really hope that we'll be talking in five years in the podcast, and uh and like the the funding will still be maintained because to do all of this, to break all these barriers, and we need, you know, everybody needs money, from the researcher like me to the entrepreneur and and of course governments and everything, they will need money to maintain the um the momentum. So I hope that this is how the situation will be, and that we'll be talking about um, you know, maybe talking more about regulation because maybe the AI moment of quantum will be there.

SPEAKER_01 56:41

So um yeah. Similar to you, I hope that the stagnation phase or the winter will not um happen to quantum technology, similar as it happened, for example, to to nanotechnology when you said that I just was thinking nanotechnology was the big thing, I don't know, 10-15 years ago, right? When everyone was talking about and everyone was like trying to, you know, um innovate in that space, and then somehow this kind of happened. I mean, it's still there, but it wasn't like the big breakthrough that everyone was hoping um through. But similar to you, I think it's not gonna happen because the last two, three years, I think, prove that so much is happening um in in the quantum worlds. The future right now looks bright, but obviously, as usual, time will verify. Uh, that is the best judge on this. Okay, last question. Imagine you had one billion dollars to deploy in quantum today. Where would you put it? I would give it to no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 57:52

I mean, you would have to say that. I have to say that. Okay, what I would do with one billion, which is this is at the level a bit of a of a strategy, right? Of like of uh like even European level strategies. Yeah, I would uh I would make, I would support, uh, I would still do not remove funding from fundamental research. So I mean, I have to say that. So this would never be here, we would never be where we are without uh without fundamental research. So I would keep some part for fundamental research and training. Help um help uh as well um startups and uh and uh company scale up. I would uh also give some money to infrastructures, um to infrastructures because I think this is really important. Uh we I don't know how we emphasize the role. Can you precise what do you mean about infrastructure? Like quantum computing, uh so I'm thinking more of quantum computing and quantum communication infrastructures, like to maintain you know the deployment of quantum devices in real conditions. That's what I mean by infrastructure, okay? And so it's in the synergy and combination with classical uh computing and networking, as we were saying before, infrastructures, or and find some model to provide access as well to uh to everyone, to researchers and to and to the industry. Yeah, I would pick a few champions as we were saying before from the startup and the and the so yeah, to to push uh consolidations that make sense. I think that's uh that's also to create a European champions in quantum computing and networking and that that's what I would do with it.

SPEAKER_01 59:27

They're beautiful, and that's so much European patriotics um of you. And with this beautiful aspect, I think we're gonna we're gonna end up today. We are getting almost to one hour, so it'll be one of our longest, but the time flies so fast, and I really, really enjoy Alani to talk to you. So, thank you so much for being here with us today. Ladies and gentlemen, that was Professor Alani Diamanti today, our special guest. So, thank you so much. Thank you, thank you ever. That was Blonde and Quantum. Thank you for joining me on this journey through the quantum business frontier. If you like the episode, please review it on Spotify or Apple Podcast and help more people discover the quantum world without needing to untangle the theoretical physics. See you next time! Unless the cat changes the time and cares.