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Hey, my name is Eva, and this is Blond and Quantum, the podcast that breaks down quantum technology into real-world business impact. Here we make the complex simple. No equation, no overthinking, just insight, innovation, and a bit of cure. So don't worry, you don't need a PhD in physics to follow. In each episode, I talk to funders, scientists, and investors about how quantum is reshaping the industry's today, not in some distant future. Oh and if you heard a black cat boring in the background, that's my co-host. Very alive shorting as a cat joining the conversation. Her name is Moon. Let's get started. Welcome everyone to the next episode of Blonde and Quantum. Today I have a pleasure to host um Professor Reza Najibati, head of quantum research and quantum labs in Cisco. Reza, it's a pleasure to host you today. Thank you so much for being here with me today. Thank you for having me. I am very excited about this podcast. That's fantastic. Let's start. I would love to ask you first about your background because you spent most of your career as a chair professor at the University of Bristol, right? And um there's some assumption which I may not personally agree with, but there's assumption that the best quantum minds are staying in academia. So I guess my question is what was the moment that you decide to cross over from academia to Cisco specifically? And why? Yeah, no, that that's a great question. I mean, this is my second time that I am jumping to industry. So the first time I also, when I was doing the research on the internet and future of the internet in university, I uh decided if really I want to make an impact and show the effect in the real life of the people and affect the users or people's daily life, I need to make that a product, a reality, so people can use it. So it has to go beyond academics. So I the first round that I was doing research, I did come out of university for a while and did a startup. So that was my own startup and build it. And then after a couple of years, then it's startup become established and got more commercial uh angle to it and was going well. I moved back to university. So now this time when I moved back to university, I purely focused on the quantum and built the quantum networking part of the uh university research. Bristol was uh was very good, had a very strong quantum physics and generally quantum background, and several of the giants of the field are coming from the University of Bristol. And I was lucky that they had those as mentors. So, and then I built the networking part which is missing. And then when the research flourished and got to a point I was ready to become again something useful that can impact outside of academics, the real wider people, then the question is that how you make it product, how you commercialize it, how to take it to the market. So um quantum is uh needs a lot of investment, needs a formal-looking vision, and needs a company that can put a muscle behind it and move it fast. So I thought that this time I have done a startup experience. I really want to experience a large corporate that has a vision for it, has an appetite for it, preferably because they can do a very fast pace of development, and that was the Cisco. So the opportunity was there. They were looking to build that uh capability and they had the opportunity. So I started discussing with them. At that time, they're head of the RB and research in Cisco, which is currently my boss. And then we agreed that, okay, my vision for quantum is great, is in line with what Cisco is would like to do that. And I told them what my plan is that, and they they really I was glad that didn't move and they put all the support behind me. And the rest of it is the history you can see in the in the news that what Cisco is as I joined. Yes. That's a beautiful story. So could you would you say that Cisco was uh natural partner because you were doing quantum networking? So they were like, maybe not natural partner, natural choice for you. Or did you consider also different end of the state? Yeah, I mean, because the networking, if you want to go and biggest networking vendor is Cisco. The pioneer of the network and internet is Cisco. Without Cisco, we wouldn't have it today network as it is, or internet as it is. So that was a perfect, I mean, for me, was an excellent match made in heaven, if you like. Uh if Cisco wants to do a quantum networking, that's the best choice. Yeah. Okay. And then coming back to the time when you created the quantum networking group at Bristol, it was still early, right? When you were doing it. There was still a niche. And a lot of people may or may not believe in it. So did you talk about it. So I wanted to ask you, did you have to fight for it for people to consider it a real thing, a real research, real investment, or wolf the investment? Or was already the timing right? I think I was fortunate. I was in the right time with the right environment. Also, I have always you have to fight in academia for the if you you need the funding, and funding comes usually uh uh um is a competitive and you need to fight for it. Now, I was lucky because I was right time, and government of UK started to build a large program around the quantum, and UK government was one of the pioneers in the world to build a massive investment on that. And also, I was in a right environment because the University of Bristol historically had a very strong quantum physics from the information theory to experimental physics, and also some of the engineering team is already working on the uh quantum devices, and then they they really supported me. I mean, I I have to say that without their support, I wouldn't be here. So that's uh basically I say that I need to do work hard and fight, but I had the right environment and I was in the right time as well. Supportive. That that's great. Okay, and then from academia, you switch obviously to Cisco and start creating the quantum research lab inside basically 200 billion dollars for company. So this is a huge thing, and I can imagine that even in the field is the same, the environment is completely different. So is it harder than you expected, or is it as hard as you expected? It is, it has its own challenges. I mean, it is pleasant for me. I I'm enjoying to take on the challenges, but it is hard. I have to say it is hard. I mean, Cisco is a big company, 200 million, 200 million is built on top of a big reputation. So whatever is that Cisco delivers on networking ecosystem is de facto, and uh everybody expects the high top-of-the-line performance and specification. So you have to make sure that you are basically in the performing in that standard. So meeting that standard and then very rapid pace. To be honest, pace of the innovation and development in Cisco is mind-blowing. I mean, uh uh and you need to keep up with that. And there are many areas of the network that being developed. I mean, AI is a part of the network, uh basically, together are big parts that Cisco is innovating. Quantum is another part, so always you have to basically you have a very healthy competition, I would call it, that you need to keep up with the rest of the excellent engineer and uh researchers that are in Cisco and developing in other areas. It is, I would say, is very difficult because another point is that when you make a claim or you do a development, really need to be up to top of the spec of what Cisco delivers. It has to be basically really tested, fact-checked, and perform what you claim. Is there are many challenges, but all of them are pleasant. And to be honest, is more technically very rigorous, Cisco. I mean, it's beyond what I expected. I mean, that's what I put it this way. And there will be definitely a time a little bit later on when I would press you a little bit more on the competition between AI and quantum inside the company itself and being an entrepreneur in it. But let's start from the beginning. I wanted to like a little bit um scale out here because you mentioned um and you emphasized that Cisco has a this long-standing tradition reputation, it's a networking company. And you even said that we wouldn't have an internet without Cisco. Maybe some people are not aware. So maybe before we start talking, what you are really doing in your quantum life in Cisco, you can you can explain us what Cisco is doing on a daily basis, what's the core business? In the way that you would normally maybe explain this to, I don't know, your neighbors at the dinner party if they ask you, what is Cisco actually doing? Yes. Well, Cisco, uh, if you like, it builds the uh the all the infrastructure that you need to connect to internet and take advantage of what you get to uh connect to the internet. At the moment, on daily life, with whatever you do, from your intent entertainments uh to your personal life, to your healthcare, to your work, what you do for work, you and daily you use internet. And internet essentially provides you an infrastructure platform that you can access, a computing platform to do certain tasks for you. Now, that access and moving information is done by a network infrastructure or internet infrastructure. Cisco builds that, builds from the very physical layer, which is the devices and hardware, switches, routers, and build the software on top of that that helps you to move information around. And more importantly, you want to feel trusting the infrastructure that you are working with. And Cisco builds all the capabilities and tools that let you trust that infrastructure which goes around the security and all of that. Now that's a traditionally when internet does. So now internet in the today, as we talk about, is all about how I can benefit from AI. No, it's becoming more benefit from AI. How I can access AI, how I can deploy AI, how I can basically ubiquitously take a benefit of that. And network and internet plays a big role of that. And again, Cisco and the AI area is uh one of the biggest players. I mean, I don't want to go further technical details because there are all sorts of information in Cisco available. You can uh and that's a beautiful explanation. Thank you for that. So for our audience, we know right now there's no we wouldn't have an internet without Cisco existence. And now with with with that, actually I read a very nice uh comparison. It was actually it was maybe done by you or someone from your team who said that Cisco is actually building pipes for the internet, and with that, we're coming to quantum and what you're doing in the quantum lab because you're trying to, I guess, repeat the same success for uh quantum networking and for future um quantum internet. And I wanted to ask you here about first of all to tell us more about it, and second of all, to walk us through this decision because a lot of big enterprise companies, um similar to Cisco, they decided to chase the um QPUs. Cisco said, no, no, no, we are not gonna do quantum computing, we're not gonna chase the QPUs, we're gonna focus only on quantum networking. Why again it comes to the root of the Cisco, what is Cisco good at it? I mean, if you look at the classical internet today, Cisco is very good to connect the computers, build the data centers, make a data center and cloud computing available to the users. So that's uh basically essentially what you mentioned somebody else said: building the pipes that connect things together. People and computers and assists together. So um now in the quantum world is obviously the one of the big benefits comes, there are many benefits, but the biggest benefit or impact comes from the quantum computers. So now you want to see how to connect the quantum computers together and how to make them accessible to a larger uh community and users. So that's where uh basically uh Cisco plays the role, and that's uh where we see a big gap. I mean, the quantum computing is very well basically invested, and people are building quantum computers in different enterprises, but now at the same time, we need to build the connectivity to scale them and make them accessible. Cisco plays the role. If you if you think about it, if I want to give an analogy of a more another analogy, is uh if you think about it, if somebody wants to build a data center, they go and buy their processor from various vendors. There are many of them, NVIDIA, AMD, depends on you want to buy GPU, you want to build a processor and so on. At the end of the day, whatever they need, they need to build a connectivity, a pipe to connect these things together so they can provide the service or make them available in that data center. Most of the time, the best option they have, they come to Cisco and buy that connector. Now, move forward in the future. Somebody wants to make a quantum data center, quantum cloud computing. You want to make them accessible, fill the service around that. So goes and buy a quantum computer from somewhere. Whoever has the best in the market at that point of time. But they need to come to Cisco to connect them together and make them accessible. So that's the story. And that's a that's a beautiful explanation. And um, I have read that in terms of connecting those quantum computers together and everything that you work on, you are you have obviously a bunch of product and a full stack, and we're gonna talk about it in a second as well, because I have plenty of questions on that. But I would like you to explain when I was reading the materials for the preparation of this discussion, I have read that basically your solution work for any modality of quantum computers. Um so I wanted to talk a little bit more about this to explain to our audience are you able to connect two computers from different modality, or does it mean there will be a special single product and special solutions for connecting each modality computers in a larger amount? Okay, no, um the aim of Cisco is that to be agnostic to the quantum computing technology and modality and to connect any possible modalities together. There are two reasons behind that. One is a scientific reason, the other is engineering and technoeconomy reason. The scientific reason is that we believe uh strongly that different quantum computing modalities are good for different types of algorithm applications, and a future quantum competing center or a data center uh would be a mixture of them. So therefore, you need to connect the multiple of modalities. Now, there is a techno economy and engineering uh behind that. Even if uh let's say that is proven in the future, there is a single modality is gonna win, or technology is gonna win. We don't want them uh uh Cisco to be uh taking a side or pick up the winner too early, or even let the customer to make a decision, or whoever built the data center to make a decision what is the best for their business, for their application, for the user community they want to serve, the quantum community technology they want to pick, and then they can use Cisco network to connect them together. Okay. So this is this is actually very interesting because I wasn't aware of it myself. There's you obviously the data centers we know, the clouds we know, we know that there are different modalities for different problems, but I was not aware that we would be connecting different modalities in a in a one one product. So this is this is very interesting. And you have described quantum networking as a full stack play, and most of companies I spoke so far usually choose one layer of the stack and then they're focusing on it. So why is um why why does Cisco need to own the whole stack? Need or maybe want to own the whole stack, but why is that? I mean at the moment there is uh more not about the want, it's about the need. There is nobody else playing that. If you want a working, useful quantum network, you need to have a hardware and software and application on top of that. So software and protocols is nobody is there. On the hardware, there are some people playing that, but there is not an integration of the solution. So that's why we are entering to this ecosystem with the full stack solution. That's where the originally Cisco started, the internet. We had a hardware, and then all the internet protocol, IP protocol, most of them are pioneered by Cisco, and then they build the application. And obviously, all the other people later on came and built based on that innovation or improved that. So in the quantum, we are doing that. I mean, we are we have an excellent team. We developed the hardware, we are building a protocol and software on top of that that make that hardware useful. And we hope that we show the community that's the baseline and that things of how the work and what we think is the best way to work, and the other can come and improve it and build on top of that. Fantastic. So you basically trying to repeat the success from classical computers that Cisco did. And uh, in a sense, maybe I'm not sure that's the right word, but monopolize the market or just ensure that you capture um a big part of the market. I mean, um, I don't want to enter the commercial angle of uh this as such, but it's not about monopolizing, about the now, it's about the time how you can make this quantum network as soon as possible in a reliable way available so that can connect quantum computers so the quantum computer can become useful. So that's the objective. I mean, obviously, any commercial company has a commercial objective behind all of that. But we are, I mean, at least from the quantum world, we don't want to kick anybody out of the uh competition or anything else. We want to do it faster. If the other can collaborate with us to achieve that faster, uh we are always open for that. But at the moment, we are the objective to aim to build this as soon as we can. So you actually said faster, and I would love to dig a little bit more about this because I know that your entitlement chip generates 2 million of entangled photons, pairs per second. That's like the numbers which are for non-suring. Yeah, abstract. Um, can you explain it and why that number matters so much? So there are matters in in uh in um fewer aspects because the quantum um information, the way we carry it, is very fragile. Quantum state is very fragile. Now, if you put it in a network and go from one point A to point B that they are in distance from each other, that's become even more challenging. One way to overcome this challenge and fragility is to produce a lot of these quantum bits, if you like, so we can use them to carry quantum information. So that's why the rate is becoming important. Now, if you think about it, you have a network that has a lot of end nodes, a lot of quantum computers connected. So all of them they want to talk to each other. So they need a uh a sort of a token or a carrier to move around the quantum information. That quantum entanglement chip produces that tokens. So that allows us with that rate allows us to overcome the fragility by repeating the process and also share this uh basically quantum entangled estate between a large number of the endpoints. Okay, and except the chip itself, you had a very busy 2025. Um, I think you launched three prototypes, if I'm correct quantum compiler, uh quantum alert, quantum sync. And recently in April this year, you also um launched the quantum switch. So I wanted to ask you. Which of them are the most exciting for you? I mean, it's like asking what is your favorite child is difficult. I mean, all of them they are very impactful. I think, to be honest, if I want to pick the most pivotal technology that we announced and is most impactful, is the switch. Because the switch is gonna be, I mean, yes, the switch and routers were the basic elements that they made internet. Otherwise, without that, we wouldn't have an internet as such. So, and for quantum, the switch has gonna play uh the same role. I think that's the switch we announced in April is the most impactful components. I mean, the other are very important, but that one is the most impactful piece. So let's talk a little bit more about switch then. Can you please tell us if it's if it's still a prototype or is this a um final product already that you're selling? And tell us some of the use cases on this. Okay, so uh I want to clarify for our audience about the product and prototype. What the quantum research is producing at the moment, we are part of the incubation uh part of Cisco, which is called OutShift, and they are looking at new technologies. So uh if you like, it is a very advanced RD prototype as is entering what we call to incubation product phase. However, uh is different from the Cisco main line of the product. Because the Cisco main line of the product is that they have a large number of the volume in terms of the customer demand, shipment, they are meeting certain criteria in terms of the support and service and reliability and so on and so forth, test criteria. But for us, still there is not that much of a demand like a classical line of Cisco product. And also, this is the if you like, we are moving away from the RD prototype toward becoming a proper prototype. So we are on that transition phase. So uh calling them a product, I don't want to mix them with the bigger line of the Cisco product, which are going to the market. These are the different categories. Now, what is the use case for that? So again, let me give you an analogy with the internet. Why internet today is useful? Because you can connect at any point, you can decide at any point of time to connect to where. Me and you are talking together, and in the next one hour you may talk for your next podcast for somebody else. And that connectivity happens. That other person may be another city or another country. So you see that you you do this on-demand connectivity between two endpoints. Now, you want to watch uh your video, you connect to YouTube, your Apple server, there are different places, and you watch your video. So again, you are the same place, but you are on demand connecting different places. Now, if you don't have a switch, imagine if you didn't have a switch in your internet, you need to have an undedicated connectivity via or wireless with each individual endpoint that you want. And imagine how many people, how many endpoints in the world you maybe talk. It just doesn't, doesn't it? You wouldn't be able to build the internet. The only thing is that there is something in the internet called the switch or router that moves the information from source to destination and allows you to anybody to connect to anybody. So that's where we build the scalable network that allows you to connect anything to anything. So that's where the quantum switch works. So allows you to scale the quantum network and connect any end user to any end quantum devices in an arbitrary form. So standard internet, when it was starting, it was mostly connecting academia entities, so universities around the world. Would that here be the same? So the first switch would be used basically to connect research centers and labs? Because most of quantum computers right now, they are in the research center, right? I only am aware of I would say um not academia, but uh there would be mainly R and D apps, but they are not necessarily academics. No, the important difference between internet originally I hear that the the speed of the moving out of the lab to the more mainstream commercial is gonna be much shorter time. So I would believe, I strongly believe by 2030 we see all of this out of the lab. Nice. That's nice because that's only what four years from now. So the future is coming very fast for us. It's catching up. Okay, I wanted to also ask you about the quantum alert because that sparked my interest as well. Your promises here that the quantum alert basically would be eavesdropper-proof security from physics, not from software. So I wanted to ask you here what's the real threat on that and if there's any limitation of it. Yes. Um so look, there are um there are certain ways you can protect your data when you move through the networks. And there are also many ways you can attack to, or an attacker or malicious player can attack and try to listen to that data or copy that data. One of the ways is that if somebody comes and tap your uh fiber that carries the data. So your fiber essentially carries the most of the internet traffic, then tapping that fiber or listening to that fiber from an engineering point of view is not a difficult task. A malicious player with the minimum resources would be able to do that. Now, the problem is that when they tap the fiber, they can do it in a way that to end party, if me and you are communicating, if somebody tap in the middle of the fiber, they can do it in a way that we don't recognize it. Still, we have our normal communication, but they can get a copy of the data and we without us realizing endpoint, realize it. Now, there are many ways to protect against it. So, one way that we always recommend to you to do a very strong cryptography algorithm. So you encode your data. Me and you encode our data exchanging so that, but you never know. If somebody listened to that, maybe have a very clever algorithm that can break our cryptography. So you never know about that. The one of the we want to have a multi-level of the security around that. So one of the another additional level of security beyond cryptography, strong cryptography, is that we detect if somebody starts listening. So our quantum alert is a very reliable way, can reliably detect if somebody tap the fiber and alert endpoint, somebody's listening to your fiber, do something about it. So that's that's the that's why we call quantum alert and use the quantum physics. There is no way to go around it, there is no way to hack it, but that's that it works. However, it doesn't, whatever they have listened so far, they have listened, doesn't protect against that. You need to use a lot of other cryptography algorithms to make sure that uh if somebody listens and not decode your data. But nevertheless, this is the way to detect if somebody is listening. That's a beautiful promise to make it more secure. And it cannot be, you know, decrypted. If we can have communications is fully secure, beautiful promise. I think we all can wait for that. And um, Reza, I wanted to also talk to you about the partnership that you announced um with IBM. So IBM and Cisco Dil targeting networked full-tolerant quantum computers. Buy early, that's another promise. So I wanted to ask you a bunch of questions about that partnership because I think it's very unusual the two big companies, two big enterprises coming together and saying, Hey, we are gonna not compete, we're gonna do something together here. And you put you know, put certain goals in certain timelines on it. Um, even if we saw in the past some of that partnerships, they usually produce more, I don't know, white papers than the real result. So here I wanted to ask you on these partnerships. Um, what does each party bring to the table? And what is each party gaining from the partnership? The ultimate goal of both parties is that to make a quantum computer, useful quantum computer available as soon as possible. Now, um IBM, without argue, I mean, is evident. I don't need for me to claim that. IBM is the one of the most advanced, if not the most advanced, quantum computing technology developers. So they are building quantum computers, they are moving very fast. And they have the best in the world so far, at least the best in the world. And Cisco is the best quantum network provider in the market, is the biggest one. Now we realize that we are not competing. What if we join force together so we can use Cisco Network and IBM quantum computers to connect them together and create a scalable quantum computing while networking them faster and make them available sooner? Why not? That's the no-brainer we should do that. And that's where the senior management of Cisco and IBM have decided to do, and they have committed resources to do that. May I ask you how many people are doing? So they bring the quantum company. Sorry? Sorry. May I ask you how many people are working on this on both sides? How big are the teams? I fortunately I won't be able to show this if share this information. These are uh uh confidential to Cisco and um you need to ask for IBM for their site, but there are uh there are uh uh substantial RD team from both sides, yes. Okay, I understand. That's fine, and we fully respect it. The bundle is here, so don't worry about it. Can you tell us a little bit more because you are getting the proof of concept with that partnerships by 2030, if I'm correct? What's the single biggest technical hurdle that needs to happen between now and then when when the product should be completed? If you can talk about it. Umnecting quantum computers is a uh it has to happen at two levels. One at the software side, we call it the compiler, and how the quantum Android execute in two or more different quantum computers connected together using network, the other harder side. So, hardware side, building a quantum computer, bigger quantum computer, better quantum computer, IBM is doing very well and very fast. Doing a better quantum network, we are doing very well and very fast. And however, how to connect the quantum network, Cisco quantum network to IBM quantum computer is at the hardware level is the biggest challenge, I would argue. Because IBM quantum computer works in a modality which is inherently working at different frequency or different regime than uh network that Cisco is worked. Connecting these two together is a big technical challenge, and that's where both uh Cisco and IBM put in resources, working together to address that challenge. Also, we recognize the challenge is very big, and we we are publicly announced. We are also seeking and already establishing collaboration with the best academics in this area or researcher scientists in this area in universities to help us to overcome this challenge. So, if I want to summarize, the biggest challenge, in my opinion, the hardest challenge, not the biggest challenge, is the hardware interface between the Cisco NF and IBM quantum computer. And I think we can add we can tackle it, but that's the biggest challenge. Is Cisco the primary quantum networking partner for IBM? Because I think they will also work with different players, including smaller startups. I'm aware of Connect, I think, if I pronounce it correctly. They cooperate with also with Atom Computing, with Pascal as well. So is this causing any tension on the partnerships or is just something else? This is for IBM to comment what they worked with that, but from Cisco's point of view, the relationship with IBM and strategic collaboration is very for us very important, and we are we have our own uh focus on that. IBM has a focus on that. The other collaboration IBM has is for IBM to answer. Okay, that's fair. That's actually fair. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about maybe maturity of the curve because obviously the industry is talking about quantum supremacy, then um don't preskill came up with this name of ISQ, then now we switch for the full tolerance. Where do you think we honestly are in this maturity curve? And what is the most overhyped claim that you are keep hearing? To be honest, every year the maturity curve is uh really changing quite fast. I mean, uh, if you would ask me three years ago if by 2030 we have a quantum camp, useful quantum camp, I would say don't think so. Now I think it's very much possible. Now, the that's about the maturity curve, but I think we are gonna see a mature commercial impact on the quantum side by 2030 latest, in my opinion. Now, in terms of the hype, people think quantum is gonna replace the existing computing or classical internet or internet. No. That's the big mistake, big big misselling. I think quantum is gonna do certain things better or even do things that is impossible to do currently, but is not gonna replace. There are many things that you cannot do with quantum, it's not making sense to do with quantum. You need to use the current internet and capability. They're gonna exist together, but they are no none of them is gonna replace the other one. So that's what I want to uh create. That's the hype I can see that people think quantum is gonna replace everything. No, it's not. Definitely not, it will be used for completely different problems. Okay, and you mentioned before OutShift as an internal um accelerator or incubator for the those innovative ideas inside um Cisco. And you even said that that right now on OutShift you have like two things basically. One thing is AI, and the second thing is quantum, which is your baby. So I wanted to ask you how do you argue for the budgets between? Because again, as you said, healthy competitive competition even inside of very important. And um, and I guess you know, AI is right right now so much hyped, and a lot of people expect much faster commercial returns from AI as well, rather than from quantum. So, how do you argue about the internal budget? It's it's not about arguing internal budget, it's more about uh if you think about the AI in Cisco generally, AI is like a more grown-up child or an equation with a more, I mean, just passive graduating from university and more near-term commercial attraction. Quantum is more of the future, and they are they are complementing, uh complementary each other. So everything is reflected based on that budget. I think I am sure when we move on in the next two to three years, the quantum becomes like where AI is today, and something else will come and get instead of the quantum. And I think there is a healthy cycle is going on on the budget allocation. And for me, the important is that Cisco is obviously recognizing that quantum is one of the pillars of the technology of the future and investing on that. Obviously, there is no brainer say that AI has a more maturity than it, and that has to be reflected in investment. Okay, well, you're right. If you compare this to the child, it's probably sending child out to universities that's a bit more expensive than maybe since the younger one. That's true. But yeah, um I I agree with that, and I see that it could be a huge, huge part of a future revenue as well, right? I guess when Amazon was creating AWS, they didn't expect that that will take, you know, bring 30% of the revenue. Yeah, yeah. So we are, I think, on on that point here. Okay, um, may I ask you, is that do you also cooperate with startups, like quantum startups? Are you open for such a cooperation or not? Yeah, I mean Cisco has a big organization that looking at the promising startups and for collaboration and investment. On the quantum side, it is uh public information. We have uh uh few companies, we can't just talk to all the companies and the things that we think that is complementary to what Cisco does, or they do even better than what Cisco does, uh collaborate on them, we invest on them, and uh there are uh uh public information available. Okay, and then okay, so another question well, Vihea, once you're evaluating those startups um yourself, I mean quantum startups that could be potentially, I don't know, uh subject for investment or for cooperation or something like that. What are the red flags that you're looking for to you know assess if the startup is even real or is mostly narrative, or how do you assess that? I mean, to be honest, I haven't met, maybe I have a fortune in a startup yet that I say that no, they are completely bullshit or or rubbish or whatever, or they are not knowing talking about everybody knows what exactly talking about. Often come at this on quantum from academic environments. No, the question is that there are two aspects of it. How realistic is the expectation about their idea and when they can achieve what they promise. Some of them I think they are too optimistic and they they are less aware of the challenge. And some of them are basically they are too early, if you like, to go and talk. They need to do a little bit of more. So, but all of them are great ideas so far of whoever I talk to. Now, uh, the challenge is that uh uh for us, at least for Cisco, for my team, where we're looking, somebody has done a uh a good amount of the work uh in a startup to reach uh what we call beyond beyond the idea of first proof of principle implementation, and then identify what are the challenges to go beyond that, and there when they need some help or uh collaboration that makes sense for Cisco to enter. So a lot of startups that uh we think I don't say is a red flag, but the challenge is that they they they are either too early still on the concept, or they haven't thought what are the challenges and how they're gonna address those challenges moving forward. So that's that's important. So it's very important for me to see founders or whoever uh approaches from a startup have a clear understanding what are the challenges moving forward and how they're gonna address that. Do you think those uh founders of quantum startups who are coming from academia, as you said, most of them coming from academia? That's where the most source, the biggest source of quantum startup right now coming from academia. Do you think they may um be surprised of the pace and the business and commercial environment? You know, uh certain stuff need to be delivered by certain time because it's expectation from partners like yourself, but also from venture capital that have a very specific lifespan of you know investment. Do you think this is something that is surprising for them? I mean, I have done a startup before myself, before Joey Cisco. So I know going from academics and then getting investment and then dealing with the reality of what investors expect, it hit you hard. Coming to large corporate delivery and commercial delivery or industrial delivery. I don't say commercial, industrial delivery and meeting expectations is hard and the pace is fast. No, but I think this is harder for the people that come from academia in quantum, generally quantum, and build a startup. The reason is that most of them are coming from quantum physics background and they have a less of engineering background. If you think about other aspects than a startup, for example, in AI or in the in the in the you can you can see the startup coming with some engineering background. So it's easier to deal with them. But with the quantum physics background, you need not only hit the reality of the what is the investment community expects and what is in And what are the engineering challenges you need to address beyond just the physics? So that's uh that's that's the uh that's the things that I think they hit them hard. But the good thing is about that, I can see that quantum is also moving to more engineering mainstreams and engineer electronic engineering, computer science engineering, and computer engineering department universities also having now quantum courses and students with quantum awareness. So those people then they come to become a new generation of startups, and I guess that's gonna a little bit solve that problem. Easier for them. Yes. That's actually a very interesting perspective uh that you bring it as all correct and right, and that's on top of everything, we're also hitting them with the business awareness and and product market fit and so on. Okay, okay, okay, okay. I would like to also ask you um a little bit of your advice, maybe for the business leader who has started getting interested about quantum right now, and one of the topics that coming back on and on again, and I already asked the same question for a couple for a few of others guests I have, but I also would love to know your perspective on that. So, how should the business leader really think about post-quantum cryptography threat right now? Yes, post-quantum. Um, well, um, there is a quantum threat, so it means that somebody, a malicious player with the quantum company capability, would be able potentially break the traditional cryptography. So the business leader needs to assume now there isn't such a player available. And they have to start now, and I say no, no, to start protecting their infrastructure. Now, there are two ways you can do that using the software capability, which is post-quantum cryptography. That with the post-quantum cryptography, you can very well do very quick upgrades of your infrastructure and try to secure it against that. But post-crypt cryptography also is the software cryptography, is the algorithmic cryptography. It has done, it's gone through by various agencies and organizations through rigorous tests to make sure they are secure. But at the end of the day, it's an algorithmic and it has a potential to be high. So there are physical layer securities that they need to take to account. There are various methods, quantum way or non-quantum way, and they need to start, become aware of that, and then with those technologies, become aware, become available to deploy that. So my advice is that move as quickly as you can to post-quantum cryptography, and then be aware or be informed about what's going on on the hardware and physical layer security to enhance that to create a multi-layer securities. Okay. And what do you think? Which industries will um implement quantum technology first? Because a lot of people are talking about pharma, some people about finance, there's obviously logistics and defense. All of these industries are completely different and have a different needs, um, different applications that can be used for quantum. What's your thought on this? Where do you see personally, like which industry will be? I give you my personal opinion. I give you my personal opinion, that's a purely personal opinion. I think if I look at the ecosystem now, the defense and the finance are aggressively looking into this to deploy that. Yeah, so we see that in the budget as well. Say maybe first uh adopter, but but but but there is a big but here. For me, it's important who is gonna make the most impact or what make the most money out of it. And I strongly believe pharmaceutical, specifically and new material in general. That's the industry is gonna make the most money and create the most impact. I mean, but obviously at the moment the ecosystem is what it is. We need a little bit more time. And speaking of the time, I it was just on my mind as well, and I completely forgot to ask you that before. But how do you really connect the research that you're doing right now inside Cisco? And you know, coming with academia, research usually is can take a long time, right? And being in academia, you have this time, and there's no such external pressure. Here you are in a publicly traded company where the earnings are the earning calls are every quarter. So every quarter, someone is coming and asking you, Reza, how is it going? When you will bring the result of it, it must be super stressful. So, how do you connect those two worlds? Yeah, I mean, the academia, you have a true freedom. You can do research as you wish, and you think that you you you would like to do research. But in in Cisco, it's always that what problem we're gonna solve, what use case we're gonna address. So, what application we're gonna build? So, all of them is that we develop the technology with the objective in mind and the use case. So that's where uh we focus. And also uh we are not looking at the so long-term research. Some of the academic research in quantum, they are looking at like a 10 to 20 year horizon. For us, it's much shorter term, so that's the difference. And you we saw that in the dates that you gave, even with the partnership with IBM, right? 2030. Yes. Good. So you don't you don't feel the pressure from stakeholder or no? I I always feel the pressure to deliver, that's for sure. But the the the always there is a tangible objective. It's a tall order, I would say it's a difficult objective, but we know that if you create this technology, that's the impact it's gonna create, that's the application it's gonna create, and that's how it's make it useful for Cisco and for Cisco customers. That always is in the picture. Okay, great. I'm looking at the time and the time flies very fast. I would love to talk to you for another one hour, but we probably need to wrap it up. I do have, although, one more question for you, which is tradition for me asking about a prediction. And here it is: the question. In 10 years from now, if um if assuming that Cisco Bet pays off, give me a concrete human version of what the world will look like. Not something that you would put in the press release. I tell you what is my wish. Yes, I tell you what is my wish and why I do join Cisco and what I would like to achieve. Then I if I achieve it or not, it's a risk factor attached to it. So my personal goal and I want to achieve it with Cisco is in a 10 year time, you have an infrastructure that if somebody develops a disease, you can simulate in matter of the week a personalized drug based on genetic of a disease and genetic of a person and deliver the drug affordably to that person. And that's only possible with the quantum computer and a scalable and accessible quantum computer. So that's my objective in 10 years' time. Let's see if we can do that or not. In the wakes, that's so beautiful. You know, my background is in the health tech, so I'm I'm very the one main reason why I'm in quantum and want to learn more about quantum is because of the health tech. Because I know that will be revolutionary. I think that's there where you start changing the life of people, and there where you see the effect. Yes. Yeah. But the matter of weeks. I mean, matter of weeks, if you can do that, I mean you save lives. Beautiful. With that beautiful aspect, and I hope this wish will be we can true for all of us, for the sake of all of us. I would like to thank you so much for being today with us. That was Blunt and Quantum. Thank you for joining me on this journey through the quantum business frontier. If you like the episode, please review it on Spotify or Apple Podcast and help more people discover the quantum world without needing to untangle the theoretical physics. See you next time! Unless the cut changed the time and first.