SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hey, my name is Eva, and this is Blond and Quantum, the podcast that breaks down quantum technology into real-world business impact. Here we make the complex simple. No equation, no overthinking, just insight, innovation, and a bit of humor. So don't worry, you don't need a PhD in physics to follow. In each episode, I talk to funders, scientists, and investors about how quantum is reshaping the industries today, not in some distant future. Oh, and if you hear a black cat pouring in the background, that's my co-host. Very alive shorting cat joining the conversation. Her name is Mel. Let's get started. Welcome everyone to the next episode of Blond Quantum. Today I have a pleasure to host Dr. Carsten Pika, quantum physicist at the Technology Innovation Institute TIA in Abu Dhabi. Karsten, thank you so much for being here today with us.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Thanks for the invitation. It's really great to be here and I'm looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

All the pleasure is mine. Carsten, let's start with your story. Because when I was preparing myself for that interview, I noticed that your story itself is actually very interesting, and you came through a couple of different fields in a couple of different countries. From my understanding, you started your PhD on high precision iron traps in Hanover. Then you landed on your postdoc on quantum simulation in Sydney. Then you get back to Germany to Munich for uh space system engineering, and then you also had some experience doing automotive innovation in Berlin. Um there so first it was at Berlin and then Munich. Yes. Okay, so sorry for that. Um, and now obviously you are in uh Abu Dhabi, so that's a lot. That's like a scenario for uh a few careers, uh, in fact. Please uh let us know how this happened. What's what drive you?

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Yeah, it's funny, yeah, when you mention it all together like this in one piece. It actually sounds uh sounds quite a lot, that's true. Um however, of course, I mean if if you look at it, uh most most uh positions actually are connected to or are related to quantum. And yes, I did start out in in the more research such capacity in Braunschweig, actually, in the National Meteorology Institute in Germany. This is where I was developing exactly iron traps, and then uh had the great opportunity to move to a little bit different field, but of course advancing also then uh work on iron trapping uh for a different purpose in Sydney, uh, which was great. And after that I I had enough of the academic um path, if you wish, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:02

But uh wanted to go to industry because I wanted to do something uh more practical, more impactful on the yeah, more directly impactful, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:14

And then something having something in my hand that that affects people more. And so I I I switched to I switched to industry and I um had the opportunity of getting into this uh entrepreneur-focused uh uh uh incubator uh mods fire and then I switched again, that's true, to the to the large system integrator uh OHB in in Munich, um where I then also came back again into contact with uh with Quantum, which was great, and then all those previous experiences. Yeah, they they really helped me also then to develop my my work and my my approach.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

I have to say every opportunity that I had really helped me to the to develop that professionally.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

And yes, then uh we had we had this uh great opportunity to move over derby uh to do something I mean not entirely new, right? This is coming back home if you wish, yeah, doing working on quantum technologies, uh, but then also again in a very applied focus. And so after all, uh this was really helpful of of of driving my career and then uh growing as a as a quantum professional.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

I understand, but when you joined uh TII, that was in 2021, is that correct? And resident was um brand new at the time, uh just starting on the quantum research center. Um, what did you look at day one? Why did you choose Abu Dhabi out of um all of those research institutes around the world that you could potentially join? What was so fascinating about Abu Dhabi or Gulf Regent?

SPEAKER_00 4:59

So, first of all, you have to know that my wife is also a quantum physicist.

SPEAKER_04 5:04

Congratulations, my goodness, quantum careful. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Yes, so this is uh this is why we also then uh found this as a really unique opportunity, like a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, really, right? To to start a dual career path. Uh also in a in a brand new quantum center in this uh this in this really dynamic and agile region. One has to say that here, right? Um starting something more or less from scratch and uh with a lot of pride and trying to build something uh impactful.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

And this was uh was really was really really a good chance.

SPEAKER_04 5:44

I see.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

And uh coming here from day one, you know, we found that the the the country is uh the UAE is a very welcoming country. I mean, as you know, most of the people here, I don't know exact numbers, 80, 90 percent, are expats, right? They're all coming together from all nationalities. And if you look at TI alone, we are 80 plus nationalities in in uh in the technology innovation institute alone. So this country is built on integration, right? And uh so coming here, arriving here and studying ourselves, and then and growing this idea home is really smooth.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

Yeah, that's that's great, and you have this very unique chance uh chance, as you said, to create something from scratch and um basically be a part of building a new power of on quantum ecosystem map in um in the Gulf region. Um Carsten, I would love to talk to you a little bit about your day-to-day research at TAE. Um, I have read that you're focusing on quantum sensing specifically, um, and that includes the levitated particle sensor in ultra-high vacuum. Uh, this phrase itself, for a lot of business people who are our audience, sounds very complicated. So I wanted you to maybe for for the business audience, uh please explain what problem does that solve that maybe a classical sensor cannot handle.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

So this levitated uh system is one of the first things that we uh started working on in our quantum sensing group, that's true. And uh we had different applications that we that we that we focused on, and one of the main ones also was in was inertial sensing, so uh measuring accelerations basically uh measuring the change of your state of motion. Sit in your car and you push the accelerator, then you get faster. So this is this inertial force that you feel. And an inertial sensor works exactly like that. So uh what you do is you measure change of motion, which means uh by knowing how much the motion changes, you can calculate back uh how far you have gone in a certain time. So that means by by uh continuously measuring uh acceleration you can uh follow your trajectory without relying on GPS uh for example. And this is uh of course then one of those uh main applications.

SPEAKER_03 8:24

Okay. Um so Carson, I would love to ask you why did you choose actually sensing? Um was so fascinating about sensing, not for example building quantum computers. Um why sensing?

SPEAKER_01 8:41

I think this was always uh interesting for me.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Like the optical clocks that I was working on during my PhD, they are also sensors. So they are actually very explicit uh um sensors for frequency. And frequency is actually one of the most precise, it's the most precise measured unit. And uh uh a couple other units of the basic measurement units, they are actually derived from frequency measurements. For example, distance, yeah, length. Uh it's also defined based on frequency standards.

unknown 9:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

And measurement as always was always interesting for me.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

Okay, so maybe you can explain a little bit um more as well in terms of the levitated system. Um one of the tests I have read about is that they are interesting because the particle itself is isolated from environment almost entirely. Can you explain this more in like a plain language, intuitively? Why that isolation in in in why this isolation is what makes the sensing so so powerful?

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Yeah, that's a very good uh good question. So if you want to measure very precisely acceleration, then you need to have a test mass, which is in this case it's a levitated particle. And you can uh just imagine this as a big lamp hanging from the ceiling on a wire. The lamp is suspended and it's just hanging there and not doing anything. But if you now would take the whole room and move it around, then the the lamp would start uh start uh moving around. But the lamp doesn't want to change. But if you the whole room is being pushed away, then uh uh the lamp needs to follow because it's uh it's held by a string. And um while it's just hanging there, uh it doesn't seem to move, right? And uh the more precisely you can measure the position of the lamp, the more precisely you can measure your your acceleration. But now imagine uh there's a bunch uh there's some some guys and then shooting uh tennis balls at the lamp from any from different directions. This is actually what air molecules are doing. Air molecules are very small tennis balls, and randomly they will uh impact uh the test mass uh from any direction and all the time, which means that the lamp will uh move around and it will jitter and and then flicker around, right? And then it's hard to actually keep track of the position very precisely. What do you do uh if you have this tiny particle? You take out the air from the surrounding uh volume and uh you make it uh stand still.

SPEAKER_03 11:31

I see. I really like the the comparation for the tennis to be honest. Um can you please explain us what will be the most commercially realistic application built on the on that research?

SPEAKER_00 11:50

So uh typical applications uh that that uh we envision for this is really for navigation purposes, but you really uh uh do localization. Um you can also do other sensitive measurements of accelerations, for example, vibrations.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Yeah, you could also use this as a geological sense of like you want to measure very small vibrations very very precisely.

SPEAKER_03 12:20

Um yeah, so this is this these are those so if we think about um future commercialization uh once the research becomes a product or services, um can you please tell us who who would be the first uh buyers? You may not know exactly, but you probably have some ideas.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Yeah, yeah. I mean, well obviously you will you will look for you will look for um um companies or for for application space where where this is this is critical. So these sensors still to be very sensitive and uh low drift, so this is some also very specific technical uh detail. This this is also one of the main arguments why we are why we are developing or why we want to develop the sensors uh to overcome drifts in current sensors that you have uh limit also um measurements and long-term precision. And yeah, yeah, so you can uh you can you can imagine all kinds of all kinds of uh uh um applications where where you need to where you need to be uh independent of other measurements, right? Or where you need to have alternative uh uh navigation measurements.

SPEAKER_04 13:46

Let's see.

SPEAKER_03 13:47

And except of Sunsink, TAI is also doing other um research in terms of quantum spice, and uh from my understanding, um there was a research, uh there was basically announcement in 2023 when TIE fabricated the first regional um superconducting qubit, right? And I wanted to ask you um is there is there any work together that you do with that unit? Um is is there uh sensing work related to the computing work, um, which I bet happening in the same building? Um, or those like parallel tracks or maybe feed each other? Is this any work that you guys do together or the teams crossing each other?

SPEAKER_00 14:40

So topically no, because uh those guys are building um superconducting uh qubit-based systems, so you have these huge dilution refrigerator refrigerators and a lot of um high frequency electronics. Uh specifically in our sensing lab, we don't use these technologies, but we use of course uh lab space, right, and then general shared tools like electronics workshop, mechanical workshop. But uh topically we don't really walk.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

I see. And are there any other research that's going on um in the parallel in terms of quantum, or mostly TIE is the superconducting um qubits and the sensing?

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Um we have another we have we have other groups in in our center, if you mean that. So we have overall we have overall um and six research groups. Three of those uh are centered around the computing, which means we we really uh we really build the the whole vertical stack from the hardware, middleware layer, right, where then the the uh computer speaks to the quantum hardware, and also the application layer where it's about the algorithms, algorithms. We have another uh theoretical group that supports us all these activities, the quantum physics group, and then the the two other experimental groups, so the two hands-on groups are quantum sensing and quantum communications.

SPEAKER_03 16:08

So, how many how many people are employed in each of those groups? How big is the institute itself?

SPEAKER_00 16:16

So the quantum center, if you mean that, uh we are around uh 100 people on the border, and they are then distributed across uh across the center. So I didn't say that. Can you just the whole quantum research center at TII consists uh of around about 100 people?

SPEAKER_03 16:36

100 people. Okay, well that's that's very um significant group to be honest, and also 70 nationalities. Wow, yeah, that's that's beautiful, and also must be um well is a really nice um diversity, but may maybe also cause some um communication problems sometimes or not?

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Not really.

SPEAKER_03 17:01

Not really. It's going very smoothly.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

No, look, look, look, I mean uh we we are an international, it cannot be any more international here, right? Like I said, this is built into the fabric uh of starting with the country, right? And then obviously when you build your group, uh you will get uh you will get people that uh that uh that are living in this in this international environment and want to work with each other.

SPEAKER_03 17:25

Okay, that's great. And Kirsten, I wanted to also ask you because you previously um work on something else, uh which is also very interesting, I think, for the whole physics community. And I I think maybe it's worth to talk a little bit about it. Uh, I mean here the optical clock um area in your uh career. Um can you please tell us a little bit about this experience and also maybe maybe actually you can explain, um, starting from the explaining what the optical clocks are, because some people may not be aware. And then I would love to follow up and just ask you um how how close we are as a humanity to you know moving the national meteorology lab into the real deployment.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Okay, well, that's a very wide question. Uh, where do I begin?

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Yes, you mentioned the word optical, and this refers to the specific um source of oscillation. Uh so a clock, if you imagine as a really as a as a um is an oscillator that oscillates, but in a very regular in a very regular fashion. It's very stable, uh frequency is very stable and very repeatable, and you can you can measure it over long time and it doesn't change. Ideally, it doesn't change at all, right? But of course, every physical system has uh has some some kind of uh minimal flaw, and you try to build it as good as possible. So you have now this very stable oscillator, and then you have a counter. And the counter really just counts uh the oscillations, and then you need to put this on a display, and that's literally the hands of a clock moving around. So this is how you can imagine it uh uh in a very conceptual way. Now, when I say optical clock, I mean then the source of oscillation being a laser, a laser being a device that emits photons at a certain wavelength or frequency. So what I don't what what maybe some people uh know or not know is that the current frequency standard is based on uh on a cesium atom, right? And on the oscillations of uh electrons in a cesium atom. But uh these oscillations are in the range of a few gigahertz. This is now uh this is now an electronic transition in the gigahertz range, and it means my oscillator uh oscillates in billion times per second, roughly. And the thing is, uh good figure of merit of how good a clock is is actually the frequency of its oscillator. The faster it is, and if it's a really good oscillator, then uh the faster it is, then uh the more precise it gets, roughly speaking. So, like a mechanical clock uh oscillates at one hertz or a few hertz, and it has an error of much bigger than compared to compared to what's oscillator or yeah, it oscillates at uh also a gigahertz range. Um now the big transition that has been developing slowly over the last years or almost decades, uh, I would say, right, in the in the meteorology community, uh is uh moving towards optical frequency standards or sorry, pushing the development of optical uh frequency standards is using uh laser light or photons as oscillator source. And here the frequency is uh by a factor of 10,000 to 100,000 um faster compared to the cesium clock that we currently have in the in the standard definition. So you can imagine that now the clock that you build out of this is uh is again in principle much better than uh than the than the current clock. And that's that's that's the the basic idea behind this. And of course, there are long ongoing discussions in in the international community, and then within the next couple of years, you may experience then uh a redefinition on the second phase on an optical frequency, but of course I will not say anything definite there, right?

SPEAKER_03 21:51

Yeah, but you say next couple of years, that's that's what your prediction is within the next years or in the next decades.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Uh I I I don't Look, this is because this is very political, also, right? So the um first of all, the clocks are getting more and more. Uh um, you can find more and more people clocks all around the world, and of course, uh, you you have to uh have enough political agreement, of course, to to push this push this uh uh speed definition.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

They're different components and uh okay.

SPEAKER_03 22:25

Um thank you for explaining that. Kirsten, I would love to change a little bit of uh direction of our discussion, and I wanted to ask you about your international experience and maybe um pick up your brain or just advice for some potential investor or funder or um scientist who are looking in uh um at the quantum development around the world, and you are in this position that you have a unique experience from Germany, from Australia, now from UIE. Um if you would be asked, um, how does UI um compare in terms of the experience um to the hubs in different countries, or maybe maybe let's avoid the compare stuff, but how would you advocate for UIE what's what's unique to attract more investor funders or researchers interested specifically in um in the quantum environment?

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Look, me as a scientist, uh I can honestly say that uh the UAE is a is a great place to be for anybody who wants to make an impact, who has ambitions and who wants to drive future developments. Uh, because this is what I have now experienced firsthand in the last five years. There has been uh there has been this uh um sorry, there has been this uh this big push towards uh diversification of the economy here. Yeah, um away from the already existing uh commodity-based economy, uh now uh growing further into growing further into other branches, right? And then of course one of those major um future future directions is is is technology uh tech if you want to call it. And there has been uh great efforts here and great pushes, and uh this is this is what you what you see here firsthand.

SPEAKER_03 24:27

And a lot of public funding, I guess, as well, right? Um I know there's a lot of going on in terms of AI, um, but that's separate. I wanted to ask you, is is quantum a strategic investment for UIE? Is there any policy um about that? Because I know, for example, that Saudi Arabia put um, I think last year or yeah, it was last year, I guess, quantum into the strategic vision 2030 as one of the strategic branches for developing the country. Um is UIE approach similar to that? Is it a part of like some kind of national uh strategy?

SPEAKER_00 25:12

So look, what I can tell you is that uh here in Abu Dhabi we have this advanced technology research council that has been that has been installed from the government, obviously, uh because they want to diversify the economy here. And that's why they have founded the Technology Innovation Institute, which is a very broad um applied research uh institution. So by that I'm uh I'm saying applied because I mean it's it's really focused on on real-world impact and building applications that uh lead towards uh commercialization. And right, then uh eventually the vision is obviously to be on the on the cutting edge of technologies and export those into the world, right? We be a major player uh within within the ecosystem. And this has been now ongoing for a couple of years, and it's been uh it's being pushed a lot, and quantum is only one part of this, right? So there's uh a lot of different technologies and technology domains that are that are uh that are actually pursued at TII.

SPEAKER_03 26:22

They're all together creating the economy, um, or the future economy. So, okay, and now coming back a little bit more um zooming in again to the quantum sensing. Um, Kirsten, quantum sensing is is often described as the nearest term quantum application. In fact, a couple of weeks ago I had a chance to um speak with Bill Vass, who's CEO of Boots Allen Hamilton, and he even said very blankly like quantum sensing is an industry already that exists. Um so a lot of experts, a lot of people are putting this as a contrary to um quantum computing, where they're saying, hey, um quantum sensing is much closer uh and it's more defensible than QKD. Do you agree with that framing? Um and if so, where do you think the timeline is actually realistic?

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Look, if at all, maybe this this statement comes a bit comes out a bit short. Um, I would say, right? And and then yeah, so it's just saying yes, no, it's it's maybe a bit limiting for the whole thing, right? Obviously, we know that quantum computing is a is a large field where there's a lot of development going on. And um, you find uh different different claims being made, and you find yeah, you you find uh you find a lot of uh great work being done and then being published. What I can say is yes, uh quantum sensing is is very close to to being uh also maybe it's a broad statement, right? But of course you you will find uh you will find uh a whole range of startups and but also larger companies that are already investing and even uh reactively building building building um quantum sensors that are that are close to close to being applied, right? You but you also find a lot of companies that are building uh um QKD systems that are also very close to being uh being already products that are being actually sold. Right? And so you you can you can find all this already. You can in the computing space, you will also find a lot of companies or small smaller companies that are like supporting the supply chain, right? And you can find a lot of companies that are um collaborating, uh collaborating with the with the research facilities uh in order to really push the development.

SPEAKER_03 28:56

That's correct, and I even have a chance a couple of them to to interview um recently. So so there is uh definitely a lot of going on. Um, but I was you know, I was thinking about, I was curious just about, I guess, about your internal um thought about this. And is there anything in quantum sensing that is maybe overhype or like an overhype claim that when you hear this on the couloir sort of conferences, then you know you you roll your eyes because it's like oh again. Um is there anything like that?

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Well, nowadays you will find uh you will find uh various uh things right in media, particularly social media. Um but one one of my favorites I would say is is uh the the quantum radar. It has been very uh resilient, and it took uh took quite some time to get a like realistic view out into the into the mainstream and uh yeah to set the expectations right.

SPEAKER_04 30:03

Okay, so you think like media are overhyping the readers?

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Well, there were claims that had been made that uh that have been debunked eventually.

SPEAKER_03 30:14

Okay, okay. And on the other hand, is there anything um that maybe you saw during your work in the institute for for the last five years that the development the the speed of development surprise you? Something that maybe moved faster than you would expect.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Well, it is uh it is fascinating to to to see how the particularly in the last uh last few years uh development is is is accelerating, right? And then also not not the least and uh support with uh um AI, right, with uh machine learning. Uh but also for example, um something that Professor John Martinez, uh he's uh actually an advisory board member of our content center. Um he also said so. This is kind of I I I like this. Yeah, he predicted uh he is uh one of the guys who's really pushing towards putting a quantum computer on a chip. And then he's he was fascinated by this this whole line of work and then but also by how much how much effort and how much pressure is being put in into miniaturization of the of the systems in general. The let's say in general the whole development of of miniaturization of putting quantum technologies on chits, like some integrated circuits and quantum computing chits.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

So this is it's really advancing at a at an amazing scale.

SPEAKER_03 31:51

That's correct. Um okay, and Kaisen, as well, you have been moving between pure physics in um space engineering and a little bit of automotive innovation, and um now you are in so deep in quantum sensing. What are the skills or um habits of mind that you know you use across all of those industries that find maybe helpful?

SPEAKER_00 32:22

I mean, so one of the main pillars I would say of of my of my work of something that I rely on and then that I find fascinating, but I I yeah, it's it's it's really system thinking. And I think uh when I got into the space industry, I I found a term for this. Starting this job as a system engineer, uh where you have to you know coordinate uh all the different different disciplines and then look at the whole system, not only the system, but product itself, you know, uh as a whole and and how how everything is connected and and influences each other from the different subsystems of a satellite uh or or a payload to the actually to the to the customer and to the you know technically there's not only technical budgets, but there's of course then uh um all the all the business related things and then everything, yeah, you have to kind of consider when you build and develop things, right? Uh this is so so when I first started getting into this job, I was like, wait, hey, I've been doing this all the time. I should be able to do this job. But yeah, working on those uh complicated uh systems in the physics lab is is the same essentially.

SPEAKER_03 33:42

And right now, when you are in uh T A TIE, what does success look like for you in the future? Like if you look at the next 10 years, for example, right? Um, what will be tangible success for you that you can then pass to your kids with a proud feeling, say daughter or son, daddy, work on that?

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Honestly, exactly what I'm working on now, but uh there will be in the future there will be company, spin-off startup, or or some some other industrial partner, and you know, you can just go to a let's go to a shop and then buy this thing and say, look, this this is something that we actually developed a few years ago, and now it's on the open market. So this is this is actually something that I really inspire. Yeah, to have something in your hand. So I I always like with my hand, uh I always like to work with my hands and to have something tangible. And this is if it's also useful for for other people, that's uh I think the biggest impact. So then like those like those sensors that we are developing here. And then one of the actually one of the current things that we are also pushing a lot now and focusing, it's it's also again related to navigation. So this is one of our let's say favorite application space, um, is building uh um navigation solutions uh that are based on on magnetic sensors.

unknown 35:13

Hmm. Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Yeah, so this this is actually of course something uh one of the newer one of the newer things that we are working on now. Of course, all within a this coherent uh coherent space of navigation.

SPEAKER_03 35:27

That's amazing. That's amazing. So well, uh good luck with it, and I hope that's that's become reality even sooner um than you hope for. Um so you can tell your kids how how how proud you are of it. Um, Kristen, last question. Uh, and that will be a little bit philosophical. We can go which way you want with that question, but I have this tradition to ask my my guests about some prediction and uh um some visions for for the future. So I wanted to ask you why do you think quantum technologies, not only sensing, generally all quantum technologies, are crucial forward.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

They are crucial going forward.

unknown 36:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

For me, quantum technologies uh have always been fascinating. I've always been fascinated with physics and working with atoms is uh is is really cool, I have to say.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

And yeah, just looking at the the potential of of uh of applications that we can that we can actually build on the that are based on those systems. I mean, apart from what has been built already, let's be honest, the whole electronics uh uh is is already based on quantum mechanics, but uh now looking at uh uh at the individual at some level of control, it's just uh it's just uh mind blowing, to be honest. And yeah, now building building now the next generation of of technology based on this is uh yeah very exciting.

SPEAKER_03 37:07

Okay, Kristen, thank you so much. It was a pleasure to host you today. Um and please enjoy the rest of the evening.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Thank you so much for having me. That's great.

SPEAKER_03 37:21

That was Blonde and Quantum. Thank you for joining me on this journey through the quantum business frontier. If you like the episode, please review another Spotify or Apple Podcast and help more people discover the quantum world without needing to untangle the theoretical physics. See you next time! Unless the Cut Change Reim and First.